<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: XFiles Friday: Simplicity or consistency</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/10/02/xfiles-friday-simplicity-or-consistency/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/10/02/xfiles-friday-simplicity-or-consistency/</link>
	<description>The theology of Reality</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:15:31 -0500</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Deacon Duncan</title>
		<link>http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/10/02/xfiles-friday-simplicity-or-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-14123</link>
		<dc:creator>Deacon Duncan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 10:44:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/?p=1110#comment-14123</guid>
		<description>Sounds good to me, with the caveat that ignoring the facts is not consistent with claiming to present a factual explanation of supposedly factual phenomena. Lewis is actually contradicting himself when he suggests that someone could come up with an that was both simpler and a viable theory while ignoring the facts. Creationism is a good case in point: all they achieve by ignoring the facts is a failure to genuinely explain anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds good to me, with the caveat that ignoring the facts is not consistent with claiming to present a factual explanation of supposedly factual phenomena. Lewis is actually contradicting himself when he suggests that someone could come up with an that was both simpler and a viable theory while ignoring the facts. Creationism is a good case in point: all they achieve by ignoring the facts is a failure to genuinely explain anything.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Swimmy</title>
		<link>http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/10/02/xfiles-friday-simplicity-or-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-14113</link>
		<dc:creator>Swimmy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 03:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/?p=1110#comment-14113</guid>
		<description>Maybe I&#039;m misinterpreting Lewis. It seems to me he&#039;s saying something like this:

The simplest theory does not necessarily fit the facts. When you are willing to do away with facts, you can easily have the simplest theory. We don&#039;t have the simplest theory, so that must mean we have the most facts. When judging between religions, you should take the complexity of the doctrine of the Trinity as evidence in favor of Christianity.

The first two sentences are correct and the last two are not. Even though it&#039;s true that the simplest theory is not always right, complexity (from a Bayesian standpoint, which is where I&#039;m coming from) can NEVER be direct evidence for a theory in and of itself. If it could, then I could easily create a religion more complex than Christianity, and say &quot;If we wanted to be simple we could, but we&#039;re dealing with facts.&quot; Lewis&#039; logic would demand that you raise your probability estimates of that religion being true, because complex interpretations signal factuality.

Complexity (in the &lt;a href=&quot;http://lesswrong.com/lw/jp/occams_razor/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;formal sense&lt;/a&gt;) must always lower the plausibility of a theory, a priori, if only by a small amount. Since simple theories can be wrong and complex theories can be right, this means we should only use complexity as a tie-breaker when we&#039;re judging between two theories that equally well fit the facts. Until we get to that point, we use the facts to exclude as many theories as we can. To look at complexity as a signal of facts is bad logic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I&#8217;m misinterpreting Lewis. It seems to me he&#8217;s saying something like this:</p>
<p>The simplest theory does not necessarily fit the facts. When you are willing to do away with facts, you can easily have the simplest theory. We don&#8217;t have the simplest theory, so that must mean we have the most facts. When judging between religions, you should take the complexity of the doctrine of the Trinity as evidence in favor of Christianity.</p>
<p>The first two sentences are correct and the last two are not. Even though it&#8217;s true that the simplest theory is not always right, complexity (from a Bayesian standpoint, which is where I&#8217;m coming from) can NEVER be direct evidence for a theory in and of itself. If it could, then I could easily create a religion more complex than Christianity, and say &#8220;If we wanted to be simple we could, but we&#8217;re dealing with facts.&#8221; Lewis&#8217; logic would demand that you raise your probability estimates of that religion being true, because complex interpretations signal factuality.</p>
<p>Complexity (in the <a href="http://lesswrong.com/lw/jp/occams_razor/" rel="nofollow">formal sense</a>) must always lower the plausibility of a theory, a priori, if only by a small amount. Since simple theories can be wrong and complex theories can be right, this means we should only use complexity as a tie-breaker when we&#8217;re judging between two theories that equally well fit the facts. Until we get to that point, we use the facts to exclude as many theories as we can. To look at complexity as a signal of facts is bad logic.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Deacon Duncan</title>
		<link>http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/10/02/xfiles-friday-simplicity-or-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-14047</link>
		<dc:creator>Deacon Duncan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 16:30:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/?p=1110#comment-14047</guid>
		<description>If you changed that to &quot;&lt;i&gt;apparent&lt;/i&gt; simplicity is not always correct,&quot; then I might agree that it&#039;s a valid point. I think Lewis&#039;s point, however, was that you could come up with a simpler doctrine of God by lying, and therefore Trinitarian doctrine is not lying, because it&#039;s not simple. It&#039;s really an invitation to indulge in some very shallow and fallacious reasoning, any way you look at it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you changed that to &#8220;<i>apparent</i> simplicity is not always correct,&#8221; then I might agree that it&#8217;s a valid point. I think Lewis&#8217;s point, however, was that you could come up with a simpler doctrine of God by lying, and therefore Trinitarian doctrine is not lying, because it&#8217;s not simple. It&#8217;s really an invitation to indulge in some very shallow and fallacious reasoning, any way you look at it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David Evans</title>
		<link>http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/10/02/xfiles-friday-simplicity-or-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-14043</link>
		<dc:creator>David Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 14:32:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/?p=1110#comment-14043</guid>
		<description>Deacon: that&#039;s true. And I would be the first to admit that there is no equivalent experimental data for which the Trinity is a best fit! But I do think Lewis had a point: the simplest model is not always correct.

EdW: THREE types? That&#039;s so last century? My feeling about string theory is that we are very far from knowing the real fundamental particles/entities. If we need 11 dimensions to describe them (or however many it turns out to be) it would be hard to persuade Aristotle that that&#039;s a real improvement in simplicity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deacon: that&#8217;s true. And I would be the first to admit that there is no equivalent experimental data for which the Trinity is a best fit! But I do think Lewis had a point: the simplest model is not always correct.</p>
<p>EdW: THREE types? That&#8217;s so last century? My feeling about string theory is that we are very far from knowing the real fundamental particles/entities. If we need 11 dimensions to describe them (or however many it turns out to be) it would be hard to persuade Aristotle that that&#8217;s a real improvement in simplicity.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: EdW</title>
		<link>http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/10/02/xfiles-friday-simplicity-or-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-14028</link>
		<dc:creator>EdW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 22:32:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/?p=1110#comment-14028</guid>
		<description>And yet, the periodic table is made up of only THREE types of fundamental particles -- protons, neutrons, and electrons.  Even simpler than the classical set.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And yet, the periodic table is made up of only THREE types of fundamental particles &#8212; protons, neutrons, and electrons.  Even simpler than the classical set.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Deacon Duncan</title>
		<link>http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/10/02/xfiles-friday-simplicity-or-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-14025</link>
		<dc:creator>Deacon Duncan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 21:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/?p=1110#comment-14025</guid>
		<description>But it&#039;s simpler than trying to make the classical set work for everything that the periodic table tells us about chemical properties. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But it&#8217;s simpler than trying to make the classical set work for everything that the periodic table tells us about chemical properties. <img src='http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David Evans</title>
		<link>http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/10/02/xfiles-friday-simplicity-or-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-14022</link>
		<dc:creator>David Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 19:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/?p=1110#comment-14022</guid>
		<description>Swimmy: sometimes the more complicated answer is the correct one. The periodic table of 100+ elements is more complicated than the classical set of (earth, air, fire, water).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Swimmy: sometimes the more complicated answer is the correct one. The periodic table of 100+ elements is more complicated than the classical set of (earth, air, fire, water).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Deacon Duncan</title>
		<link>http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/10/02/xfiles-friday-simplicity-or-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-14007</link>
		<dc:creator>Deacon Duncan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 11:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/?p=1110#comment-14007</guid>
		<description>Exactly. Once we abandon the idea that truth is consistent with itself (does not contradict itself), then the very concept of &quot;truth&quot; loses all meaning, and virtually anything is as good as &quot;true&quot;. Trinitarians really can&#039;t be sure that God won&#039;t send believers to burn in Hell for all eternity while rewarding skeptics with eternal bliss in heaven. Sure, it contradicts what the Bible says, but maybe that&#039;s just one more &quot;spiritual mystery.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly. Once we abandon the idea that truth is consistent with itself (does not contradict itself), then the very concept of &#8220;truth&#8221; loses all meaning, and virtually anything is as good as &#8220;true&#8221;. Trinitarians really can&#8217;t be sure that God won&#8217;t send believers to burn in Hell for all eternity while rewarding skeptics with eternal bliss in heaven. Sure, it contradicts what the Bible says, but maybe that&#8217;s just one more &#8220;spiritual mystery.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: EdW</title>
		<link>http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/10/02/xfiles-friday-simplicity-or-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-13999</link>
		<dc:creator>EdW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 07:37:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/?p=1110#comment-13999</guid>
		<description>I was just thinking about something.  If God is capable of being both 100% man and 100% God, whereas to say &quot;Jesus is 100% man&quot; and &quot;Jesus is 100% God&quot; are not contradictory, then why should God be considered &quot;100% good&quot; only?  By their own logic, God could be &quot;100% good&quot; and &quot;100% evil&quot;.  Surely the actions of God in the Bible support this view even more than the Trinity.  The Bible could be written by Satan himself, and be 100% false, but that would not contradict the statement that God wrote it and is 100% true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was just thinking about something.  If God is capable of being both 100% man and 100% God, whereas to say &#8220;Jesus is 100% man&#8221; and &#8220;Jesus is 100% God&#8221; are not contradictory, then why should God be considered &#8220;100% good&#8221; only?  By their own logic, God could be &#8220;100% good&#8221; and &#8220;100% evil&#8221;.  Surely the actions of God in the Bible support this view even more than the Trinity.  The Bible could be written by Satan himself, and be 100% false, but that would not contradict the statement that God wrote it and is 100% true.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Swimmy</title>
		<link>http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/10/02/xfiles-friday-simplicity-or-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-13990</link>
		<dc:creator>Swimmy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 04:09:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/?p=1110#comment-13990</guid>
		<description>The excerpt from Lewis is downright hysterical if you know anything about evidence at all. If complexity or nonsensicalness is evidence favoring a religion, then we should weight more ridiculous religions as more plausible than Christianity. Imagine a world in which the opposite of Occam&#039;s Razor is true. That&#039;s the world Lewis wants you to think we live in. Is such a world even coherent, philosophically? Is it ever even possible that the most complicated answer is more likely to be the correct one?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The excerpt from Lewis is downright hysterical if you know anything about evidence at all. If complexity or nonsensicalness is evidence favoring a religion, then we should weight more ridiculous religions as more plausible than Christianity. Imagine a world in which the opposite of Occam&#8217;s Razor is true. That&#8217;s the world Lewis wants you to think we live in. Is such a world even coherent, philosophically? Is it ever even possible that the most complicated answer is more likely to be the correct one?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: MLee</title>
		<link>http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/10/02/xfiles-friday-simplicity-or-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-13981</link>
		<dc:creator>MLee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 23:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/?p=1110#comment-13981</guid>
		<description>Excellent commentary, 
Thank you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent commentary,<br />
Thank you!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
