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	<title>Comments on: The Evidence Against Christianity: Introduction</title>
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	<link>http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/04/21/the-evidence-against-christianity-introduction/</link>
	<description>The theology of Reality</description>
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		<title>By: cl</title>
		<link>http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/04/21/the-evidence-against-christianity-introduction/comment-page-1/#comment-11140</link>
		<dc:creator>cl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 18:54:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/?p=890#comment-11140</guid>
		<description>Further criticism of DD&#039;s GH accompanied by positive arguments of my own &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thewarfareismental.info/the_warfare_is_mental/2009/06/the-masoreticgreek-hypothesis-strategy.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Further criticism of DD&#8217;s GH accompanied by positive arguments of my own <a href="http://www.thewarfareismental.info/the_warfare_is_mental/2009/06/the-masoreticgreek-hypothesis-strategy.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>..</p>
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		<title>By: GaySolomon</title>
		<link>http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/04/21/the-evidence-against-christianity-introduction/comment-page-1/#comment-8634</link>
		<dc:creator>GaySolomon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:02:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/?p=890#comment-8634</guid>
		<description>DD writes:

&quot;...if the Gospel hypothesis were true, we ought to expect the same consequences as would arise from any loving father’s desire to be involved in his children’s lives...&quot;

Your challenge in trying to show that the god of the gospels is not evident in the real world will be threefold:

a) the god of the gospels has evolved over time. In the OT, god is tied to the tribes of Israel and their land. He is jealous, vengeful, and capricious. By the time we get to the NT, god has become a &quot;heavenly father&quot;. Which god are you refuting? The petty, small diety of Moses, or the heavenly father of many mansions described by Jesus? Christian apologists can simply move the goal posts on you. They can claim that god of the gospels is not simply a father, but is a terrible judge, or a fierce king.

b) Apologists will claim that gospel accounts of god are analogies. Analogies are translations - they are clumsy human attempts to grapple with the enormity of a totally alien &quot;other&quot;. Therefore, the gospel description of god as a father will never be identical to our notion of a natural human father. They will claim that you are reducing god to a single analogy and then taking a swat at it. God, afterall, is so much more than simply a father.

c) god has chosen to be hidden at this point in human history. Apologists will claim that the time of direct revelations is over until the end times, or that god is waiting to establish a new covenant with his people - or some such other variant on the theme of hiddeness.

Your goal is ambitious Deacon. The ability of this meme to morph and adapt to rational inquiry is legendary. I await this series with great interest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DD writes:</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;if the Gospel hypothesis were true, we ought to expect the same consequences as would arise from any loving father’s desire to be involved in his children’s lives&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Your challenge in trying to show that the god of the gospels is not evident in the real world will be threefold:</p>
<p>a) the god of the gospels has evolved over time. In the OT, god is tied to the tribes of Israel and their land. He is jealous, vengeful, and capricious. By the time we get to the NT, god has become a &#8220;heavenly father&#8221;. Which god are you refuting? The petty, small diety of Moses, or the heavenly father of many mansions described by Jesus? Christian apologists can simply move the goal posts on you. They can claim that god of the gospels is not simply a father, but is a terrible judge, or a fierce king.</p>
<p>b) Apologists will claim that gospel accounts of god are analogies. Analogies are translations &#8211; they are clumsy human attempts to grapple with the enormity of a totally alien &#8220;other&#8221;. Therefore, the gospel description of god as a father will never be identical to our notion of a natural human father. They will claim that you are reducing god to a single analogy and then taking a swat at it. God, afterall, is so much more than simply a father.</p>
<p>c) god has chosen to be hidden at this point in human history. Apologists will claim that the time of direct revelations is over until the end times, or that god is waiting to establish a new covenant with his people &#8211; or some such other variant on the theme of hiddeness.</p>
<p>Your goal is ambitious Deacon. The ability of this meme to morph and adapt to rational inquiry is legendary. I await this series with great interest.</p>
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		<title>By: Facilis</title>
		<link>http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/04/21/the-evidence-against-christianity-introduction/comment-page-1/#comment-8621</link>
		<dc:creator>Facilis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 23:17:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/?p=890#comment-8621</guid>
		<description>I for one applaud DD for trying to set out a consistent rubric to evaluate claims. I hope he will also provide us robust psychological evidence for the &quot; common psychosocial phenomena that can be observed even today among believers&quot;.
One part where I feel he attacks a strawman is
&quot;that He could enjoy an intimate, personal relationship&quot;...[and]...&quot;enjoying personal time with them,&quot;.
I&#039;m not sure what he means by &quot;personal relationship&quot; but I&#039;m not aware of which part in the bible says that. From what I see YWVH is our patron of salvation and a glorious and distant king. He is certainly not my drinking buddy (if that is what you mean by &quot;personal&quot;). I approach him on humbled knees.
Here&#039;s a good site addressing many myths people have about Christianity.
http://www.tektonics.org/af/christianmyths.html
&quot;we ought to expect to see His divine wisdom charting out a course that amazes us by its ability to protect us from harm while simultaneously equipping us to face the challenges (if any) that await us in the eternal realm.&quot;
I agree with the divine wisdom part but not the &quot;protect us from challenges&quot;. A large number of believers in both Old and New testaments faced challenges and suffered</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I for one applaud DD for trying to set out a consistent rubric to evaluate claims. I hope he will also provide us robust psychological evidence for the &#8221; common psychosocial phenomena that can be observed even today among believers&#8221;.<br />
One part where I feel he attacks a strawman is<br />
&#8220;that He could enjoy an intimate, personal relationship&#8221;&#8230;[and]&#8230;&#8221;enjoying personal time with them,&#8221;.<br />
I&#8217;m not sure what he means by &#8220;personal relationship&#8221; but I&#8217;m not aware of which part in the bible says that. From what I see YWVH is our patron of salvation and a glorious and distant king. He is certainly not my drinking buddy (if that is what you mean by &#8220;personal&#8221;). I approach him on humbled knees.<br />
Here&#8217;s a good site addressing many myths people have about Christianity.<br />
<a href="http://www.tektonics.org/af/christianmyths.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.tektonics.org/af/christianmyths.html</a><br />
&#8220;we ought to expect to see His divine wisdom charting out a course that amazes us by its ability to protect us from harm while simultaneously equipping us to face the challenges (if any) that await us in the eternal realm.&#8221;<br />
I agree with the divine wisdom part but not the &#8220;protect us from challenges&#8221;. A large number of believers in both Old and New testaments faced challenges and suffered</p>
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		<title>By: Jayman</title>
		<link>http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/04/21/the-evidence-against-christianity-introduction/comment-page-1/#comment-8618</link>
		<dc:creator>Jayman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:24:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/?p=890#comment-8618</guid>
		<description>Deacon Duncan:

For the record, I think one could, in theory, disprove Christianity.  All you would have to do is show that Jesus Christ is a false prophet.  Your methodology seems fine.  The problem is that your Gospel hypothesis has only a tangential relationship to Christianity.  For example, you imply that Christians should not be harmed while the Gospels make it clear that Christians may be persecuted and killed.  If this Gospel hypothesis of yours were proven false it would be of no consequence to Christians.

Also, you seem to be intentionally trying to drive as big a wedge as possible between the Myth hypothesis and the Gospel hypothesis.  If the Gospel hypothesis is true, &lt;i&gt;as understood by Christians&lt;/i&gt;, revelations and divine interventions would still be rare and thus human thought would still be of importance in Christianity.  Human thought is even necessary to judge and interpret revelation and divine interventions.  The standard of Christian doctrine is Jesus Christ himself.  There is an objective, historical truth regarding what Jesus said and did even if we can&#039;t always agree on what that is.  Thus, the consequences of the Myth hypothesis you have mentioned are not terribly different from the consequences of the Gospel hypothesis &lt;i&gt;as understood by Christians&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deacon Duncan:</p>
<p>For the record, I think one could, in theory, disprove Christianity.  All you would have to do is show that Jesus Christ is a false prophet.  Your methodology seems fine.  The problem is that your Gospel hypothesis has only a tangential relationship to Christianity.  For example, you imply that Christians should not be harmed while the Gospels make it clear that Christians may be persecuted and killed.  If this Gospel hypothesis of yours were proven false it would be of no consequence to Christians.</p>
<p>Also, you seem to be intentionally trying to drive as big a wedge as possible between the Myth hypothesis and the Gospel hypothesis.  If the Gospel hypothesis is true, <i>as understood by Christians</i>, revelations and divine interventions would still be rare and thus human thought would still be of importance in Christianity.  Human thought is even necessary to judge and interpret revelation and divine interventions.  The standard of Christian doctrine is Jesus Christ himself.  There is an objective, historical truth regarding what Jesus said and did even if we can&#8217;t always agree on what that is.  Thus, the consequences of the Myth hypothesis you have mentioned are not terribly different from the consequences of the Gospel hypothesis <i>as understood by Christians</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Deacon Duncan</title>
		<link>http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/04/21/the-evidence-against-christianity-introduction/comment-page-1/#comment-8617</link>
		<dc:creator>Deacon Duncan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 21:02:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/?p=890#comment-8617</guid>
		<description>Thanks guys, good comments. More?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks guys, good comments. More?</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/04/21/the-evidence-against-christianity-introduction/comment-page-1/#comment-8616</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/?p=890#comment-8616</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s one weakness. Your predictions from the Gospel hypothesis use the analogy of a human father. But a human father is a being of the same order as his child, and can only interact with the child by means comprehensible to the child (even so, some human fathers choose to outsource their child&#039;s education). God on the other hand is &lt;i&gt;ex hypothesi&lt;/i&gt;of a different order to us, and we cannot know that his best option is to behave like a human father.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s one weakness. Your predictions from the Gospel hypothesis use the analogy of a human father. But a human father is a being of the same order as his child, and can only interact with the child by means comprehensible to the child (even so, some human fathers choose to outsource their child&#8217;s education). God on the other hand is <i>ex hypothesi</i>of a different order to us, and we cannot know that his best option is to behave like a human father.</p>
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		<title>By: Pliny-the-in-Between</title>
		<link>http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/2009/04/21/the-evidence-against-christianity-introduction/comment-page-1/#comment-8614</link>
		<dc:creator>Pliny-the-in-Between</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.evangelicalrealism.com/?p=890#comment-8614</guid>
		<description>To me, the concept of memes works better than using the term myth to drive this discussion when I&#039;ve considered it in the past.  Obviously you have to be careful with the metaphor so as to not make it seem as deterministic as genetic processes, but the notion of evolving and mutating cognitive concepts does seemto explain much of what we observe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To me, the concept of memes works better than using the term myth to drive this discussion when I&#8217;ve considered it in the past.  Obviously you have to be careful with the metaphor so as to not make it seem as deterministic as genetic processes, but the notion of evolving and mutating cognitive concepts does seemto explain much of what we observe.</p>
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